Oh, the places you'll go (on the internet)

[TW: suicide, death, and “forever.” VERY BIG trigger warning.]

quixoticlyqueer:

livelaughawesome:

quixoticlyqueer:

livelaughawesome:

quixoticlyqueer:

cocksucking-accent:

livelaughawesome:

this is most likely an incredibly unpopular opinion

but i feel like i need to say it anyways

(tw: suicide)

i feel like people should be allowed to commit suicide if they want to

because saying they shouldn’t be allowed to

is kind of getting in the way of that whole bodily autonomy thing

which is kind of something that i, as a feminist, freak out about in terms of uterus(or uterus-esque things) owners rights

so yeah

idk like if a person completely understands what suicide is and the alternative choices and shit

then who am i to stand in their way?

Yes this.

This is actually one of the reasons I’m TERRIFIED of “forever” rather than of death.

I mean, we all die. I’m not hoping to die soon, but I do know I will someday and I want it that way.

But the idea of being forced to keep on living, or that I could be lying in a hospital in a coma for years, or just anything involving “forever,” even if that forever is relatively short… It drives me up the wall. The idea that if, someday, I decided to kill myself and failed, I could be kept somewhere against my will until “I got better?” AUGH.

Reason 23498139318237 I am terrified of “heaven” or any sort of afterlife. I just want to be GONE when I die. The idea of dying and then being stuck somewhere, even if it’s in heaven sitting on a comfy cloud, with an endless supply of chocolate-covered strawberries, is torture.

My life is important, and valuable, and precious, because it will end someday. Because someday I won’t be here to do what I do. And because it is mine. If someone gets to decide whether I live or die, what good is it?

How do you determine if an individual is of sound mind to make that kind of decision, though? Suicidal thinking is crisis mode thinking - it’s almost invariably irrational and is usually a response to external stressors that an individual lacks the coping strategies or mechanisms to deal with. We don’t allow people to consent to life changing events when they’re intoxicated, we don’t allow people to consent to things like this when they’re under duress. So how do we determine that an individual isn’t under duress when they choose to take their own life? How do we determine they’re capable of consenting?

The only time I view society accepting or assisting in suicide is in the case of patients with terminal illness, for end of suffering type activities. Otherwise it’s impossible to determine if an individual is capable of consenting to something as drastic as suicide.

I think that it’s pretty ableist to make a connection to “you’re incapable of making an informed decision because you suffer from (insert mental illness here) or a lack of coping strategies”. I know many might disagree with me, and fuck, that’s totally fine, but I believe that suicide is a coping strategy.

An individual is capable of consenting to anything that they do to themselves. If my hands are doing something to my body without any external pressure, then I’ve consented to it because my mind is allowing it to happen.

I know that people always make claims about being selfish if you commit suicide, but honestly, if somebody 100% feels like that’s the only way to escape pain, then I think it’s pretty selfish of me to tell them that it’s wrong of them to feel that way simply because I will grieve over them for months when they’re gone.

I definitely understand both perspectives, and I would never tell somebody that they shouldn’t be okay with somebody’s decision to commit suicide, because it’s a pretty hard topic to look at unbiasedly, but that’s what I think.

Except that nowhere did I say an individual is unable consent because they’re suffering from mental illness. I stated that, prior to committing suicide, research suggests that individuals are not of sound mind. Suicide is by and large a crisis mode response to external stressors, and if an individual is in crisis or otherwise not of sound mind we, as a society, don’t concede their right to consent.

This is similar to the fact that an individual is well within their rights to make the decision to ingest alcohol; however, we don’t consider consent given while under the influence of alcohol valid; because an individual under the influence of alcohol is not of sound mind. Suicidal thinking is often, or even almost invariably, irrational. Individuals who make the decision to kill themselves are almost universally under duress, and the ability of an individual to consent to anything as monumental as ending their own life while under duress is extremely suspect.

There very well may be exceptions, and certainly philosophical, ethical, and medical thought in quite a few European nations leaves provisions for individuals who are of sound mind but suffering from inordinate and inescapable pain, for example, are capable of giving consent to commit suicide. But I highly doubt - and I’m speaking both as a future clinician and individual who works in suicide prevention/education - that the vast majority of suicidal individuals are of sound mind or not under duress at the time of their suspect consent.

I apologize for misunderstanding your definition of “not of sound mind”. Are you referring less to an idea of chronic mental unhealthiness and more so of simply a moment or two where people’s mental state is jeopardized? I understood it more as simply being mentally unwell in whatever way, including lacking coping strategies. I’ve just heard this lack of coping strategies be referred to as in the mental illness family. I’m sorry!

As much as I understand the reference to alcohol you’ve made, I feel like it isn’t a perfect comparison. Because, yes, a person is unable to consent to anything a person has asked them to do if they are under the influence of alcohol, but they are still able to consent to anything they do to themselves under the influence of alcohol. I see a more correct comparison to the idea that if a person is drunk, they are still allowed to consume more alcohol, because they are consenting to something that’s happening to their body by themselves.

I also need to point out that I believe that simply because something is illogical or irrational, it is still a legitimate feeling or thought that should be respected. (Not necessarily supported, but still, respected.) This goes back to when people say things like “you’re just being illogical” as if that somehow makes my opinion completely moot on whatever topic. No, it just means that my feelings and emotions are making more of an impact on my decision than my mind.

I also think that for a lot of people, ending their life isn’t considered a monumental decision as you’ve described. I consider those who believe that there is something more than the life we’re living on earth, or who believe in reincarnation. Simply because they are ending this life, doesn’t mean they are ending all of their future lives. This whole concept may seem somewhat ridiculous to anybody who’s not spiritual in this way, but I still think it’s important to consider.

I definitely don’t support suicide, I hope I can make that clear. There is no human being in the world who I would tell should kill themselves if they want to, but there is also no human being in the world who I would tie down to a bed and intrude on their personal autonomy to do whatever they would like. I strongly believe in suicide prevention, and helping people find coping strategies that work, but at the end of the day, I also believe that suicide, for some people, is the only thing that will allow them to escape an unliveable amount of physical or emotional pain.

I’m referring to an individual being not of sound mind in the same sense that an individual who is inebriated isn’t of sound mind, or an individual who is suffering from a concussion may not be of sound mind, or an individual recovering from surgery, or suffering from PTSD, or in the grips of a panic attack, or suffering a disassociative state or otherwise impaired by trauma or stress. Because individuals in suicidal states are, more often than not, responding to outside stresses and under extreme duress their ability to provide consent is suspect. That isn’t to say that someone with depression, or anxiety disorders, or bipolar disorder (whyhaythari’mKP) or an ED is “not of sound mind.” But an individual with an anxiety disorder suffering a panic attack? During the attack they could adequately be described as not of sound mind, and we would not consider consent given under the duress of a panic attack valid consent.

Also, while the alcohol analogy isn’t perfect (analogies never are) it still fits better than you’re indicating - we don’t allow individuals who’re inebriated to sign contracts, for instance, even contracts that refer to giving away their possessions or, say, donating one of their kidneys. Inebriated individuals are unable to write and sign their wills, and really are generally unable to consent to many, many things that really relate to their bodily autonomy or personal liberty.

Further, the vast majority of suicides are in response to outside trauma and stresses. Most people who take their lives don’t do it so they can be reincarnated into a better one, or anything of the sort. The vast majority of suicides - particularly youth suicides - are impulsive decisions made under duress while in crisis. Again, there are some exceptions, but realistically we’re discussing statistical outliers at alpha levels of <.01, here. And we can provide exceptions and provisions for those outliers without compromising a life-saving strategy for the overwhelming majority of people who’re making a decision in crisis. The fact that most individuals who attempt suicide - or who’re contemplating suicide - and either fail or receive treatment don’t end up taking their own lives in the end further supports the idea that suicide is a crisis response to stress, not a decision based on informed consent by a sound mind.

I believe that the decision to take one’s own life, if it was made by a rational mind while not under duress, should be one we as a society should respect. I support end of life euthanasia, for example. However, based on all the research I’ve encountered on the topic of suicide as well as all of my professional and personal experience with suicide - even as someone who’s seriously contemplated and nearly carried out a suicide attempt - I do not believe that individuals in crisis are capable of making informed consent. I believe nearly every single individual lost to suicide is a failure on society and medical professionals to adequately provide the support and coping strategies needed to overcome external stresses, and I believe validating suicide as an option - especially among communities suffering from epidemic rates of suicide attempts and suicide completions - is an incredibly dangerous activity to partake in. Even if we believe an individual has the abstract right to taking their lives we should be striving with every fiber of our beings to provide them other means of coping with the internal or external stressors propelling them towards a path of self-destruction.

I like this conversation. I think about this a lot.

Yeah, as someone who has (sort of but not that seriously) attempted, I’m going go to with quixoticlyqueer on this one. Making it an issue of individual autonomy (which is a concept entrenched in privilege that not all of us have access to - just look at the history of reproductive rights) misses the point when you consider that people who are marginalized and suffering are the ones who will attempt and commit suicide. It just seems like a way of not having to seriously address the harmful environment.

(via imnadroj)

Source: livelaughawesome